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jaco jr
Senior Member
USA
1457 Posts |
 Posted - 08/01/2005 : 08:21:59 AM
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Hi Bob, I have a question and I hope you can help me out here. I just started posting on another forum which, for the time being, will remain nameless. And if I'm right about this, I won't be posting there much longer. One of the members posted a short story about an encounter he had with Bobby Columby, during which Columby explained where Portrait of Tracy came from. My BS detector went off, so I copied and pasted his story here for you, hopefully you'll be able to help. His story appears exactly as it does here:
"Hey - I was lucky enough to meet and chat with Bobby Colomby the other day - who if you don't know already - he produced Jaco's solo debut album - and he was a lovely guy. We met at a showcase for the trumpeter Chris Botti whom he's producing at moment - and of course I had to ask him about Jaco. He was more than happy to tell me a few things - that I'm sure have been written about elsewhere (and yes, I have read the Bill Millowski book!) but he told me that alot of the album was jammed - and he (Colomby) actually constructed a lot of stuff into 'songs' from ideas Jaco was just jamming.
The most interesting thing he told me was about 'Portrait Of Tracy' though - basically he got Jaco to start playing a load of his ideas he had with harmonics - he just kept saying "play something else" and Jaco kept coming up with stuff - but luckily Colomby had hit record so got it all down on tape. Afterwards - without telling Jaco - he edited it together to create 'Portrait Of Tracy' - then he called Jaco back into the control room and said "Listen to this..." then played Jaco the tune - to which Jaco kept saying "This is bullsh*t!" and didn't get it - but Colomby kept saying - "No listen to it again" and slowly Jaco started to get the tune. When he finally got excited he suddenly said "Wait, I have to add one more thing..." ran into the booth and played, of course, that amazing last chord...
I'm sure he's told that story before but it was so cool to meet him - he was very cool and was really happy to rap about that period - he's obviously very proud of what he did and he literally created that record and helped make it as varied as possible, thus showing all of the different sides to Jaco's music." (end of quote)
That didn't seem right to me, and I told him. I thought Jaco wrote Portrait of Tracy specifically for Tracy, hence the name (DUH). Anyway, if you know the origins of the song, maybe you can shed some truth on this.
Thanks,
-Mike
<font class="body_xsmall">The flame that burns twice as bright burns only half as long.</font> |
Edited by - jaco jr on 08/01/2005 3:22:34 PM
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wdent
Senior Member
USA
3979 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2005 : 08:14:32 AM
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Not speaking from any "inside" information but, I tend to not believe those claims only because if you listen to Jaco's demo tapes made prior to the recording of his solo debut album, the arrangements were pretty much there. (example: Continuum on POJ and Havona which I now have heard from the internet....and there are others). I could certainly see suggestions being made as to adding instrumentation here and there but even in that case, there are things to refute such assertions (Herbie Hancock on POJ speaking about the string section on Kuru/Speak Like a Child and how "pristine"/"correct" they were and how impressed he was with Jaco's string arrangement. There was every implication that Jaco was the idea guy and arranger on that piece.) Also on POJ, you have Charlie Brent speaking of Jaco's ability to do it all....arrange, compose, produce, and play and orchestrate, so why would Jaco just bring a bunch of unorganised jams to his big recording sessions in NYC, unprepared? No, just from circumstantial evidence from too many people who were as close to Jaco and those sessions as anyone could be, I would tend to NOT believe those claims. (again, just one person's surmising). Of course, I also wonder if Bobby Columby really said those things????
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Edited by - wdent on 08/02/2005 08:16:27 AM |
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mixeduplydian
Junior Member
USA
397 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2005 : 10:25:43 AM
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| I think the poster who related the story may have gotten a few things wrong in translation, so to speak. Tracy herself said that she heard Jaco creating the tune "Portrait of Tracy" - he worked on it for hours while she was listening from another room. That whole "Bobby Colomby" story is inconsistent with everything else out there - I wouldn't give it much credence. |
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wdent
Senior Member
USA
3979 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2005 : 1:28:46 PM
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Oh yeah.....and also, that the song was titled "Portrait of Tracy" as an afterthought moreso than a song which was composed FOR Tracy...this from Tracy who posted the circumstances around this composition, right here on this website.
Jaco: You know you've got that tape recorder on Duke Ellington's book!
Interviewer: Which book is that?
Jaco: The only one! |
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Bob Bobbing
Administrator
821 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2005 : 11:55:57 PM
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Hey jr,
It's always a tough call with these kinds of things. You know, trying to establish what really happened, and who is telling the truth about events in Jaco's life. And then because most everyone who comes online here, including myself, loves and respects Jaco to such a degree that our immediate response to anything that challenges our reality of Jaco is to blindly defend him, with things now tilting the other way. Of course there is a line of truth that runs through the “Jaco story,” but I’m afraid it’s forever lost within the layers of folklore and literally impossible to ascertain at this point.
But when information emerges from an insider like Bobby Colomby who was intimately involved with an historical milestone event such as Jaco’s solo debut, and who is allegedly making claims that he was responsible for writing Jaco’s classic “Portrait of Tracy,” it challenges our beliefs and rocks the foundation of what we know to be true. Could he be telling the truth here? Gasp! at the thought of Bobby Colomby having a hand in composing Jaco's "Portrait of Tracy!"
In all fairness, I do know that Jaco’s demos for the solo album did not include “Portrait of Tracy.” They did include a segment of beautiful harmonics that Jaco referred to on the track listing as “harmonics stuff.” On the same cassette tape of Jaco’s demos with Donna Lee, and Forgotten Love is approximately 15 minutes of various harmonic melodies played back to back in different ways. Beautiful for sure, but was simply titled “harmonics stuff.” And I never heard Jaco play "Portrait of Tracy" as we all know it up until that time either. So, it is at least safe to say that “Portrait of Tracy,” was not in it’s final form until the very final stages of the album. And it wasn’t named “Portrait of Tracy” until later on either. At least not up until the time Jaco went to New York City to begin the first of the sessions. I would imagine that everything was moving around very quickly during the final months of production. So, it is feasible that this beautiful harmonic classic was the last tune to come together. But exactly when and how it all came together is now a point of contention.
Nobody can deny that Bobby Colomby is a quality music producer with an incredibly successful track record. And because he is the one who supposedly discovered Jaco and produced his solo debut, it’s understandable that he would feel, at least to some degree, responsible for Jaco's success. And even though I’m sure there were instances where Bobby influenced Jaco to perform a certain way or encouraged him to try alternative approaches to a production, surely this wouldn’t justify his taking credit for composing one of Jaco’s most beautiful songs. I can even see Bobby fooling around in the control room with various edits, but that’s all part of being a good producer isn’t it? So, with that said, possibly there is a little truth to the story that Colomby edited Jaco’s “harmonics stuff” down into some kind of song form. But composing the song, not in my book.
We probably will never know for sure the whole story that surrounds the production of Jaco's solo debut, but one thing is for sure, Bobby Colomby wasn't present on any of Weather Report's recording sessions. Oh ****!, I hope that Joe Zawinul and Wayne Shorter don’t all of a sudden come forward and start taking credit for "Havona" or "Three Views of a Secret." Then all of us Jaco fans will really be in trouble.
BB.
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Edited by - Bob Bobbing on 08/16/2005 7:33:55 PM |
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jaco jr
Senior Member
USA
1457 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 7:26:12 PM
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Thanks Bob. With matters like this, as you said, it's always difficult to seperate fact from fiction. I'm glad it cleared up a little, and it's almost a good thing that the story still is not 100% clear. It adds a bit of mystery to the origins of the song (and the whole album). I love to think about it like that when I listen to it now. This unbelievable piece of music is so perfect, but we'll never know ALL the facts about how it came to be, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. So thanks again Bob, always great to get some good "inside information" : )
-Mike
The flame that burns twice as bright burns only half as long. |
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EddieG
Senior Member
United Kingdom
690 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 8:47:26 PM
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I could believe that Bobby Columby had some (probably miniscule) input into the arrangement of Portrait Of Tracy, but NOTHING to do with the actual concept of the song. This picture of a handwritten songlist for his first album (http://www.jacopastorius.com/images/music/extras/solo_songlist.jpg) seems to indicate that Jaco thought enough of his "harmonics" to include them in the list as a track. Tracy has already confirmed on this board that Jaco was fooling with harmonic compositions for a long time. And if you listen to the album version, no where is there an edit point evident. The closest you get to that is the chord at the end, which I think might have been flown in from another take.
I don't think Bobby had anything to do with P.O.T, besides observing from the control room.
"My ears are sweaty!" - Johnny Pastorius |
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John
Starting Member
17 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2005 : 10:01:47 PM
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| This is a third party retelling of a story by an anonymous supplier, not exactly a highly credible source. I can tell you this, whether Bobby Colomby said it or not, and I doubt he did, the story is not true. How can I be so sure? I have a recording that is either an outtake or a demo from the Jaco Pastorius album. And there is an alternate version of POT, note for note. |
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Skonrokk
Senior Member
Iceland
1823 Posts |
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pedro
Senior Member
USA
858 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 1:04:50 PM
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Some random thoughts.
1. I'd like to hear the story straight from Colomby. The poster might have gotten some facts wrong or mis-represented Colomby's remarks.
2. I don't think that Colomby got any songwriting credit on the album for the song. I suspect, if he felt he had created the song, he would have insisted on credit.
3. A good producer very much pulls, and extracts creativity from the musician, so I have no trouble at all seeing Colomby in the control room asking Jaco to try something a number of different ways and then editing it down to a cohesive composition. But I don't think that's the same as songwriting anymore than George Martin would claim songwriting credit for 'Eleanor Rigby' or 'Yesterday' because he arranged the string quartet.
Pedro |
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bcolomby
Starting Member
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2005 : 12:15:20 AM
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For those interested…
My wife informed me that the authenticity of my statements regarding the writing of Portrait of Tracy was up for grabs and that I should set the record straight once and for all.
Here it is... for the last time:
When I originally heard Jaco in a club in Fort Lauderdale, the two immediate impressions that I came away with were his unique use of harmonics and his incredible dexterity. As I got to know more of his amazing compositional and arranging skills, I decided to get him a record deal under my production agreement with Epic Records.
Jaco came to NY and lived with me while we recorded his project. I had a studio in my home so we could spend time, while organizing the album, recording bits of ideas that came to mind.
Much of what was recorded had either, already been written, or was created by Jaco during that time period. Donna Lee was one of Jaco's favorite showcase tunes. "Continuum", "Come On, Come Over," "Kuru/Speak Like A Child," "Opus Pocus," "(Used To Be A) Cha-Cha" and "Forgotten Love" were all carefully laid out by Jaco well in advance of their recording.
I did what most producers try to do and make sure that his artistry, and in Jaco's case, his diverse musical vocabulary, was well represented on this, his first disc.
I wanted to bring to light two of the aforementioned unique aspects of his playing. The harmonics and fluid dexterity. For the harmonics, I did exactly what I described several times. I didn't write a note. I merely asked him to play the same types of lines utilizing harmonics that he did in Florida where we first met. Without his knowledge, we recorded various lines and phrases. After editing the piece together with engineer Dave Palmer, I played it for Jaco. He hated the whole idea of it. After some convincing, he finally bought in to the concept and even overdubbed the highest note in the last chord.
Whatever Tracy thought Jaco wrote for her prior to his first project, definitely wasn't this particular piece.
Okonkole Y Trompa, was a lengthy, mesmerizing, hypnotic jam between Jaco and Don Alias. I'm not sure if either of them remained aware that it was being recorded. It was a symphony created by the two of them... on the spot. After it was finished, I asked Jaco to write a melody to be played over the piece. We tried Ira Sullivan on Soprano and then Flugelhorn, and I think we even asked Wayne to play it. It never sounded right to me. I suggested Peter Gordon, a gifted French horn player that had played briefly with my band. He absolutely nailed it.
Lastly, I tried to get Jaco to write something to display his incredible technique. He put a jam together called... I think... "Fast." Herbie, Michael Walden & Jaco recorded the basic track. It never grew into anything musical enough to make the record.
I obviously didn't take writers credit (although many producers routinely do), nor do I want anyone to think I came up with one note. It's all Jaco.
Under normal circumstances I would never feel obliged to get involved in a controversy of this nature, but the facts surrounding someone as brilliant as Jaco need to be clarified... and for those that have expressed their completely uninformed opinions... sorry.
Long live Jaco.
All the best,
Bobby |
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mixeduplydian
Junior Member
USA
397 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2005 : 10:25:16 AM
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Thanks for sharing your recollections with the board - that's fascinating info. And no apologies are necessary. Opinions expressed are exactly that - opinions. That's what makes these message boards great - things can be discussed and hopefully people in the know will find their way into the conversation to share the real scoop with the rest of us when necessary. Speaking for myself, I really appreciate the fact that you took the time to stop by.
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bcolomby
Starting Member
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2005 : 1:24:52 PM
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Here's a postscript:
During the recording of "Portrait of Tracy," I was sitting opposite Jaco in the middle of the studio while he played, not in the control room.
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wdent
Senior Member
USA
3979 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2005 : 08:14:26 AM
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I read carefully, the response by bcolomby (really with a bit of awe). Hearing it from the Man himself with insights that I have never heard before regarding the recording of Jaco's first solo cd is just amazing to me. When I think of it, I have never really heard any details to this degree about the making of that album. Too bad VH1 didn't exist to tell the story about the behind the scenes stuff.
Then I thought, well, bcolomby should have the last word on this issue but felt after thinking about it, something more needs to be said.
If it was important enough for us to debate the entire issue of what Bobby Colomby said or didn't say....what credit he took or didn't take....and then for Mr. Colomby himself to set the record straight, then I just want to say thank you to him. If you read Bob Bobbing's remarks about Portrait of Tracy and Bobby Colomby's remarks, they match up even though as far as I know, neither knows the other personally. Lastly, I don't feel there is any need to debate how Bobby Colomby feels about Jaco given his reason for taking the time to post his explanation. So, if it was truly Bobby Colomby who posted that answer, THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU! If it was a hoax-ter....well......then, I am the fool (which wouldn't be the first time i would be as such!)
Jaco: You know you've got that tape recorder on Duke Ellington's book!
Interviewer: Which book is that?
Jaco: The only one! |
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Bob Bobbing
Administrator
821 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2005 : 3:12:02 PM
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This has turned out to be an excellent exchange. And with Bobby Colomby himself coming forward to set the record straight, who would have thought? I too give Bobby credit for coming on. And I agree that it does reveal his respect for Jaco.
Wayne, Bobby Colomby and I have spoken several times at length, but we never discussed anything about "Portrait of Tracy." And aside from his ego, (one that rivals Jaco's) I find him to be the consummate professional. More importantly, as you have just realized after reading his post on this forum, Bobby is the definitive source of information regarding Jaco’s routine during the making of his solo debut. I personally take him on his word and I’m totally fine with the scenario he described.
In regards to POT and who wrote it, Bobby spelled it out very clear just how it all went down. As far as Jaco composing it for Tracy, well, that conception has suffered a blow. Yes, Tracy used to love it when Jaco would practice his harmonics while she was taking her evening bath, but that in it’s self doesn't mean that Jaco sat down and composed that song for her. Ultimately he did end up naming it after her, and quite possibly he drew from his fond memories of her evening baths when he did, but as far as it being inspired and named in one swoop, that myth is now gone.
Another “myth” exists about the “Portrait of Tracy” that will hopefully draw Bobby back for an encore. One thing we do know, as a result of "POJ-The Early Years,” is that Jaco made a pencil drawing of Tracy while she was sitting down at home in a chair and resting her foot on his acoustic bass. Jaco mounted his portrait of Tracy on the top of a small coffee table that he cut the legs off in order for it to be hung on the wall. It was Tracy’s Christmas present for that year. Well, Jaco told me, and others, that he wanted that piece of art to be his debut album cover. Now this is something that I personally always wanted to ask Bobby, but never did. Maybe it’s not that important in the grand scheme of things, but I’m curious nonetheless.
Excellent discussion Ya’ll.
bb
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jaco jr
Senior Member
USA
1457 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2005 : 6:03:05 PM
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Thank you both so much! That helps a lot and like I said before, this is the best, most reliable source for Jaco info there is so I take it all to heart. I can't tell you guys how great it is to hear this from the source himself and finally get this disagreement taken care of in a curtious and professional manner. Thank you again BC for coming here to put this to rest.
The flame that burns twice as bright burns only half as long. |
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